Although I have that same fantasy, I'm dreading the moment when millions of four year olds land on top of the rest of us standing at the bottom of the stairs.

Exactly. My uncle tried to tell me I had to vote for whoever the Dem is because we can't have four more years of this hell. Sorry, I'm doing all I can to get my guy on the ticket instead, and I refuse to vote for Kerry no matter what. Not doing it. I will not vote out of fear again. It's Dean, or it's Libertarian. I am not responsible for the idiocy of the bulk of the electorate.

Doesn't anybody else find comments like this -- like what we see from 'fish' -- frustrating? "It's my guy or nobody?" Really? "I won't vote out of fear?" Hey, I'm not ashamed at all to admit I'm scared of four more years of intimidation and the eroding of my rights (for starters). And casting a Libertarian (or Green or whatever) vote doesn't absolve you of responsibility.
We're right back where we started. "Al Gore and George W. Bush are exactly alike". Didn't we learn that this was never true. I thought the frustration we all felt was that the last four years had proved that a vote for Nader was, in fact, folly. That supporting Democrats -- even if they were moderate or conservative -- did, in fact, make a difference. That perhaps, if you didn't like the leading Democrat, it might inspire you to do that much more for your guy (or gal). But no, we're back to sour grapes politics, which only ensures that the "idiot electorate," susceptible to the right-wing hack journalism of Fox (not to mention a $100 million dollar campaign treasury) will again elect George W. Bush.
Look, This is a time not to get grumpy that our guy is behind -- it's the time to work that much harder for him, frankly. I think Dean's got a GREAT shot at the nomination. And it's my firm belief that this sort of nonsense does him a real disservice. Let's get him the nomination. Then let's get Bush out of office, no matter what.

Benjamin -- I've been ABB since before I heard Howard Dean's name, indeed, since December 2000. If Kerry (god forbid) gets the nomination, I will push the little Diebold button next to his name (fat lot of good it will do, but I will.)

However, it seems that the Democrats refuse to learn the lessons that disaffected Greens and independents tried to bestow in 2000. I can't blame people like the person I quoted and fish for deciding that their participation just isn't going to matter. I can't tell you how many times in various fora I've been told by Democrats to "Go away" and "we don't want you then." Me, a suburban independent with some disposable income and inclination to support Democrats. 'True' Democrats (from spokespeople Carville and Begala on down) have basically told me to piss off. You tell people to piss off often enough, and eventually they'll believe you and, you know, piss off.

So, while I was angry with the Greens in 2000, after watching the Democratic party closely for the past many months, I don't think I'll be able to bring myself to be angry with third-party or non-voters this time around.

In the words of Buffy, the Vampire Slayer, "Please, give me something to sing about."

I don't feel much like singing right now.

I didn't say my guy or the highway. I said the only reason I am considering voting Democrat in the first place is because of Howard Dean, and if he isn't on the ticket I am not planning to vote Democrat. I am still voting, and I will be voting for the candidate with whom I most identify. If one of the other (non-Kerry) candidates makes it instead, I'll do some research and make a decision then.

I am NOT a standard Democrat. I am an independent voter, and I make up my own mind. I just got back from Washington Dean HQ, and I will be back there tomorrow, and I will be at the event Wednesday morning. I'm mailing my family who are ABB voters and telling them why Kerry isn't maybe the best choice to beat the incumbent. I think Dean still has a great shot at getting the nomination and I am doing everything I can to make it happen.

I am sorry if it offends you that I will not be intimidated by the spectre of four more years of this mess. It will truly suck for all of us if the incumbent wins another term, I know that, and maybe it's selfish of me to not want to vote for a man I think is a liar and a cheater who ducks every time a controversial issue comes up. But I am going to vote for a candidate whom I can believe in, whatever party he or she happens to be. I believe in voting for what I think is right, not what is expedient or least bad. I want to vote for what I believe is right and good, and that's what I'm going to do.

In the meantime, I am working my patootie off for Dean and I am caucusing this weekend, with as many people as I can convince to come with me.

I forgot to say, thank you J. That's pretty much it. I didn't vote Nader in 2000 either. I wanted to vote for Harry Brown (libertarian), but I didn't.

One last thought: If I continue to settle for what I am offered, instead of holding out for and working towards what I truly want, then I will never get anything better. And I have finally made up my mind that most of 20 years of voting for the lesser of two evils or the least damaging option is enough. I want something better.

Voting for the lesser of two evils is sickening to me at this point, literally. And I know why the major parties do this -- it's precisely to keep the majority of the population FROM voting. Think about it -- if you want to control an election to the best of your ability and you have 100 people voting, it would be in your best interest to get 90 of them to stay home and stay away, that way you only have to work on ten people.

So it seems as if I can either stay home, just like the party wants me to, or else vote for their anointed taxidermist's product, just like they want me to. Either way, I'm merely doing what I've been manipulated to do. At that rate, why not just pick whichever action keeps me from puking?

It won't keep the country from sliding to the right and continuing along its slow slide to fascist destruction to vote for Kerry. All it'll do is delay it for a while -- and not very long, either. Slides like this usually wind up exponential after a certain point, which means we will buy ourselves about fifteen or twenty minutes of life by voting for the Democratic puppet.

If Kerry gets the nod we will have plenty of time to have this argument, but I disagree with many of you. The time for purity of heart and support of the most ideal candidate is now, with our money and time and energy.

If our guy doesn't get the nomination, in November it will be time for recognition of practical realities, namely that all the hundreds of appointments a President gets to make that don't make the headlines but affect people's lives should NOT have Republicans in them again for the next 4 years.

Kerry might well appoint some of the same people Dean would have, or at the least he won't be appointing cracked theologians like John Ashcroft.

The other argument that I find persuasive is that gridlock is, in practice, much better than one-party rule.

But as I said, if it comes to this, we will have plenty of time to have this argument.

You're right to a large degree, J, that most of us Democrats do something that I really -- really -- hate: say we want a free and open primary with representation across the board, of all stripes, and then work like dogs to get behind whoever the establishment favorite might be. Doesn't work that way with the GOP by the way, I assure you. From that perspective, it's not only a very real frustration for independents like you, but for staunch Democrats like me (not to mention it's just obviously "bad for business").
(ASIDE: I believe it about Begala, to a degree, but is Carville really acting crazy? Crazier than usual? I have to say, it's not that I don't believe you, it's that this doesn't sound like Carville to me...)

I don't like John Kerry any more than any of the rest of you. And when the primary comes to Virginia (Feb 10th, I think...), I sure won't be voting for Kerry, no matter what happens today (Feb 3rd).

V has it exactly right (and said it much better than I could've). It's time for the Dean people to get up off the mat and do what they do best. But if by some chance he doesn't get the nomination, I will work very hard to get GWB out of office. I believe my country deserves that.